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05 July 2016 @ 10:47 am
Guggenheim, you're an idiot. (Also, water's wet.)  
I'm rolling my eyes so hard at Marc Guggenheim, I swear. I have no idea how that man is still employed. This is one of those instances where I wish a fic writer would be in charge of the show. There's some damn good ones out there.

I haven't heard anything regarding Legends of Tomorrow (I have a bit more faith in some of the other writers for that show anyway) but for Arrow? OMG, Guggenheim, how do you still have a job? It's like he can't make up his mind about anything!


First, there's the remark of why they went in the direction they did for Diggle in giving him his own codename - Guggenheim says they didn't want to make him another Green Lantern or anything like that, they wanted him to be his own character away from the comics. Well, that's fine. But then he also turns around and goes, "We wanted to make Felicity Oracle but DC said no." Well, no shit they said no. Felicity's got nothing to do with Oracle. She's an original character with the name of some character from the comics that made one appearance so give her the same treatment as Diggle and let her have her own name. Which they ended up doing obviously but the fact that they attempted Oracle made me want to do a literal headdesk. Make up your mind, dude. Either you're trying to get away from the comics or you're trying to use them. But stop going between the two and stop half-assing it while you're at it.

Then there's Laurel. Guggenheim said that they had no idea who was in the grave when they filmed the scene at the start of the season. According to him, they had no idea who was in the grave when they started filming the damn episode where Laurel was killed, which....what? What? How'd you even plan anything after that then? Katie Cassidy found out like the night before or something that it was going to be Laurel getting killed off in that scene. That's absolutely an awful way to handle that. Not just storyline-wise but, holy cow, what a way to treat the actress that's listed as the female lead of the show.

The reason that Laurel ended up being killed off? Guggenheim stated that he wasn't sure where to take her storyline. He felt like there was nowhere for it to go. The other reason was they were getting complaints of how many masked vigilantes were on the show.

Here's where I have an issue with both those reasons:

If there's too many masked vigilantes running around Star City right now then why is every single new character coming on next season (except for one) a masked vigilante? They're literally bringing in like three new ones, at least. And the kicker for me is this one:

The new DA is a man who is also a vigilante.

He is literally a male Laurel. She was offered the DA job and she was going to take it. Yes, she considered not taking it. She also said that she'd give up being the Black Canary to be the DA. But there's a storyline right there - Laurel giving up the Black Canary and then realizing that it made her feel alive, just as she said in her final moments on the show. She goes back to being the Black Canary and has to learn how to juggle that along with being the DA. She has to balance her cases and make sure she's not letting her fighting get in the way of the way she handles cases. She and Oliver, the new mayor, working from inside city hall to improve things while all of Team Arrow tries to improve things on the street as well.

Ta da, Guggenheim, I just did your damn job for you!

And if that doesn't work, how is it that you still have no idea of what to do for a storyline for her? There's literally 75 years of source material for the Black Canary and you couldn't draw off of a single one of those? Give me a break. (Incidentally, this is also why he said he had Kendra leave the team with Carter on LoT. He couldn't think of any storylines for her. Gee, how about something other than a romance? You constantly had her gripe about how just months ago she was a barista so how was she supposed to know what to do? Why not have her stick with the team and start learning? Have her start remembering her past lives. Use her 4,000 years of memories to help keep the timeline intact. Build up her friendship with Sara onscreen some more. Just because Savage is gone, it didn't have to be the end of her storyline.)

If you were going to kill someone off, why not kill Quentin? I mean, yeesh, he was on the show less than Laurel but his death would still impact all of them and carry over to Sara on LoT as well. Why not have Laurel going after Darhk because the man killed her father for betraying him? He was seeing Donna, which impacts her and that impacts Felicity (not to mention, Felicity knew him from him helping the team out). Oliver's known the man since he was a child and they had started to work together. Thea knew him through the same reasons. Diggle knew him from working with him on the team. You kill him off and it hits all of them. Then you still have that big impact you wanted and, bonus, you haven't killed off the Black Canary.

I can't at all fathom how anyone thought killing the Black Canary off of a show about the Green Arrow would be a good idea. They don't even have to be romantically involved - they're still essential to each other's storylines. The show had established that they were friends for most of their lives and they had built that back up and were working together. Show us more of that instead of just mentioning it or whatever. Or show us more of Laurel and Thea - their scenes were always good to see. Let us see Laurel helping Thea find herself, that was Thea's reason for leaving the team anyway, right? She was afraid she was going to lose herself and, to sum up, go dark side. So, have Laurel help her figure out who she is without being a vigilante, without having a guy in her life (as much as I hate to say it, that creepy mouth guy was right, her world has just been revolving around having a boyfriend lately). It'd have been so good to see.

Instead, we got....well, anyone that watches (watched?) Arrow knows exactly what we got. Let's just say that there's a reason the show's ratings hit an all-time low after Laurel's final episode. It was all downhill from there.

I miss the writing from the early seasons. You guys remember how awesome season 2 was with Slade and the introduction of the League and that awesome fight where they took on all of Slade's people? I miss that.


Okay, I think I'm done. If you made it this far, I salute you for reading that, lol. Not that it's obvious by this post but I generally try to keep it pretty positive when thinking about what's coming with shows. Arrow has just....stomped on that and it built up until I had to get it out. Hell if I was going to do it over on Tumblr either. You post a rant over there and if it goes against someone's opinion, they're suddenly reblogging it to their followers who think how they do and it just spirals out of control while you start getting bitchy messages and the like. At least, that's what it's seemed like lately and I, frankly, don't need to deal with that.
 
 
Feeling: frustratedfrustrated
 
 
 
it only burns when I breathe: n3: don - wtf by hyacinthgirl-36spikedluv on July 5th, 2016 07:36 pm (UTC)
Wow. I did not know all of that. o_O I knew that they had no idea who was in the grave early on, but to not know even when they started filming that ep? OMG. I was not a huge Laurel fan, and I know diddly about DC comics 'verse, and even I thought their reasons for killing her off were crap.

Same with Kendra. I don't miss her because the writers made her such a boring character! They could have made her be so awesome, and instead I wanted to spork my eyes out every time she and Ray were on screen together. But I liked her scenes with Sara! I even liked her scenes with Carter when he was trying to teach her stuff and was pissing her off. There was spark then, but they couldn't seem to sustain that so they gave up.

Your ideas of how the season could've gone (and next) with Laurel sound amazing! And logical. Interesting how the writers couldn't think of that.
Nicole: Faith quote - hot chicksblue_icy_rose on July 5th, 2016 09:12 pm (UTC)
I had huge stacks of comics growing up so whenever a comic based show popped up as I got older, I'd get excited. This one, I remember I wasn't sure about since I already really enjoyed the Smallville version of Oliver Queen. NGL, the whole reason I gave the show a chance was because I found out that Katie Cassidy was playing Laurel. That's when I was like "Well, sign me up for this!" (And then, okay, I was glad I did when I saw Stephen Amell shirtless. Priorities, I have them!) I only found that out recently on how long they waited to decide who was in the grave and my mind was boggled on how long they waited to make that choice - and the poor excuses that they used. It was even sadder to me when I considered everything Katie put herself through for the role - when Laurel became an alcoholic and a pill addict, she started going to AA meetings and dropped all kinds of weight to look the part. Once Laurel got back on her feet, her look reflected that, and then she started working out and buffing up once Laurel started training and took over as Black Canary. She started going back and reading the comics when she got the part too as research. I can't even imagine pouring all that in to a character only to find out "Tomorrow, we're killing you off."

I think the problem is that they started out with the firm idea that it would be Laurel/Oliver but they didn't really move it forwards. They had Tommy there and Oliver was getting started as the Hood (ha, what a name, lol). Laurel was nowhere being the Black Canary outside of the fact that she already knew how to fight since Quentin sent her and Sara to self-defense classes when Sara started getting bullied at school - which they forgot about except for a few scenes here and there. But mostly, they turned Laurel in to someone who needed rescuing. It's a shame too because the character is so much more kick ass and snarky than they let her be on the show and they seem to have kept to that with the recent DC Rebirth comics. (First Green Arrow issue has her literally calling Oliver out when he talks about "fighting the man" and she's just like "You're a billionaire. You are the man, you hypocrite." Though I personally laughed harder at "You're much more fun when you're not talking." followed by her kissing the heck out of him.) We got glimpses of that on the show but not enough for the viewers to really see why Oliver stayed in love with her for so long before eventually moving on, I think.

It'd have been interesting if they'd started the show with the Black Canary already there but I know they decided to have a different origin story there by having it start with Sara instead of Laurel. Since Sara's a favorite of mine, I'm not really upset about that but I think it's a shame that they didn't play with it more. (Or bring Sara in right away as White Canary from the start - she covers half her face in the comics so they still could have changed it for LoT to lose the mask to show she didn't need it anymore. It might have played off the fact that White Canary is Black Canary's biggest enemy in the comics too. Like Sara trying to do the right thing but Laurel not approving of her methods or something. I don't know.)

Oh, they messed up with Kendra. I admit, I didn't know as much about Hawkgirl when they brought her and Hawkman on but I was still excited about it. Then they just....shoved her to the side unless they needed her to make an attempt on Savage or get romantic. Well, or hang out with Sara. So much potential down the drain there. But, oh geez, I'm so glad that I'm not the only one that didn't like her and Ray. I was so boggled by that one. I was like "Didn't Carter JUST die five episodes ago?" That's maybe a couple months and then she was like "Heeeeeey, Ray!" instead of, well, doing anything. Oy. The writers, I swear.

Thank you! I just really love the character and I liked how Katie played her - I've got a few addicts in the family and, wow, she nailed that portrayal. So when they said there was no more story for her, I actually blurted out "LIES!" at my screen, lol.
MF Luder: Arrow Black Canarymf_luder_xf on July 20th, 2016 10:18 pm (UTC)
The "we couldn't go anywhere else with her character" still makes me see red. That's on you, Marc. Not the character. Somehow the comics have kept the character going for 70 some years (as you note) but OKAY. >:(

I didn't know he specifically asked to make Felicity Oracle. Like, obviously they were going for that kind of a character but wow. I am now especially happy Supergirl is getting an actual Barbara Gordon as Oracle (though I am still interested/nervous to see how it works out as part of Supergirl's team since she already has her tech guy and the DEO...)
Nicole: Sara - Black Canary close upblue_icy_rose on July 21st, 2016 04:36 pm (UTC)
Right?! That's the most idiotic reason I've ever heard a writer use. Oooh, I was so mad. Still am. *mutters*

My mind was boggled when I heard that (just like it was boggled that Felicity was in the running for favorite DCTV superhero - what?). I'm happy we're getting Barbara Gordon but, like you, I'm curious on how that's going to work out.

And I just realized I left out one other thing they could have done with Kendra on LoT - one of the main storylines in season two is the Justice Society of America. Hawkgirl's a freaking founding member. Oy vey.
MF Luder: LOT LenxSaramf_luder_xf on July 22nd, 2016 01:46 am (UTC)
I love Felicity. And I am okay with her having an Oracle type role. But Felicity was a character in the comics, why does she need to become a different character? Oy, Marc.

I didn't know he also said the same thing about Kendra, too. Marc, you're a fucking writer; if you can't write what are you doing?? When will Greg come back? Or fire Marc and get new writers?